75. Are Your Money Beliefs Holding You Back? Entrepreneur's Guide to Being Debt Free with Meera Shireen

Aug 14

Limitless Podcast —Episode 75 – Money Beliefs with Meera Shireen

They say “money doesn't buy happiness”, but money can make things easier. In fact, when your finances are under control, life gets easier. Today, Jamie Ratermann chats with Meera Shireen, certified financial planner and founder of Life.Money.Balance, she explains how entrepreneurs can make financial decisions with ease. As well as ways for them to be debt free.

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Episode Highlights:

How did Meera got started in the financial industry.
The top things entrepreneurs ignore about their money.
Understanding that your debt is not a reflection of you.
Why debt is worth the investment?

About Meera Shireen:

My name is Meera Shireen Meyer, I’m a certified financial planner and founder of Life.Money.Balance, a holistic financial wellness firm specializing in helping female entrepreneurs feel amazing about their money, inside and out. I am passionate about women feeling confident making financial decisions and creating wealth. I live in Boulder, Co with my husband Chris and our two kids.

Resources:

Follow Meera Shireen on Instagram @meerashireen

Website: https://www.lifemoneybalance.com/

Join her email list: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/6318d182e7f6956350b4334f

Are you looking to build a thriving business with a strong brand message, money-making offers, and a resilient, growth mindset? Join the Marketing Mastery waitlist: https://www.jamieratermann.com/marketing-mastery

Try Sunsama: https://try.sunsama.com/jamie-ratermann

Launch with certainty and excitement with this new free training! This mini-course includes 15 minutes of coaching, my 7-point launch planning guide, and a workbook to start planning your next launch: https://jamieratermann.com/how-to-launch-a-new-offer-social-media

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Read the Transcript:

Meera Shireen 0:00

money. You know, they say money doesn't buy happiness. But money can make things easier. But really, if you're, you know, consistently unhappy, stressed, whatever that itself needs to be addressed outside of your financial situation. And so I think a lot of the time we see these money tips and we see this money advice, and we look at it and we're like, oh, if I do that, then I'll get this boost, and I'll be happier. And it's like, no, you have to address the baseline right? Right where you are right now, and figure out how to do that outside of money. And that way, your financial relationship will actually progress will be so much faster. If you don't think of money as the goal to your happiness. Being limitless

Jamie Ratermann 0:40

is knowing your success and your growth are built on a radical belief in yourself. Limitless is honoring your purpose, your health and impact above all else. Limitless is never playing small because the more alive you feel in your life, the more growth and success you attract. Hi, my name is Jamie Ratterman. And I am a Holistic business coach, meaning I am just as invested in growing your health as I am and growing your wealth. With 11 plus years and brand social media marketing, I help rebellious entrepreneurs master marketing and body leadership and say fuck it to the hustle. This show is here to encourage you to become more radically aware of your self imposed limits to break free of your shoulds and to expand your brand into a movement led by you.

Hello lovelies, welcome to another episode of the limitless podcast I could not be happier to do this episode. Today. In general, we've talked a lot about money on this podcast before our relationship to it, how we can grow our wealth, everything in between. But we know that money is wrapped up in a lot of feelings. And I really wanted to talk about this today with a guest who has been highly recommended today you're going to get to meet Mira Shareen, who is a financial planner. But I love that she likes to take a holistic approach. She talks a lot about how she wants you to feel good about your money, not just about how we can get our debt lower how we can make more money in between. It's like how are we feeling? How can we move through those motions? And in general, many of the guests who've been on on the limitless podcast before have been like have you met Mira? Have you met me? Or have you met Mira? Like I know ever now it's time to officially meet her on the podcast. So I'm so excited to one get to know her today alongside all of you but also to we get to talk about one of my favorite things. Mani mera, thank you so much for joining us on the limitless podcast.

Speaker 1 2:29

Thank you so much for the introduction, Jamie, I'm so excited to meet you today. And I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 2 2:36

I'm so excited to have you I in general, I feel like this has got to be the top topic that entrepreneurs like to talk to me about. And I'm like, Oh, I get to pick your brain about how we're kind of sold some BS. But first, tell me a little bit about why you decided to become an entrepreneur and also to a little bit about your background.

Meera Shireen 2:55

Yeah, yeah. So I'm, like you said, I'm a financial planner, CFP. And I've been working in the industry since 2012, where I kind of stumbled upon a job in finance after working in so many different types of businesses like entertainment and real estate and tech and food startups and had no idea what I wanted to do in my life, I just knew that I really wanted to help people. And I had this kind of master plan of like working for nonprofit. And then I stumbled into the world of finance, and really just this kind of fee based finance model where you can help people with their finances. And that's it, and you're not like selling them anything or getting commissions or doing anything kind of shady and you people people need help with their money. And so I realized like, this could be a really cool avenue for me and just fell in love with it. So that was in San Francisco. And then I had my son, you know, about seven years ago, and and when he was a year old, I really wanted to spend more time with him. So I left my full time job and started doing some consulting work. And then that didn't end up panning out. And a friend told me like, you should just do this on your own, you can do it and I was terrified. And I had no intention of ever starting a business in finance I there's so much regulation. There's there's so many different barriers and gates to actually getting established in this industry. But I just kind of went for it. And here we are six years later. I started my investment management firm in 2020. And yeah, it's been, it's been great. It's been really eye opening to be able to bridge the gap between what we learn in school and in our lives about money and what you actually need to know in order to be successful with money and it's a huge gap and so many people I encounter on the surface level you would assume like oh, hey, yeah, you got it all together. And then underneath it's like, Oh, you like all these lessons about money never came up at any point in your life. It's, it's wild.

Jamie Ratermann 4:55

Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I feel like there's I think there's this understanding Have money where it's like, oh, the, here's your budget don't overspend it here, you make money, make money so that you don't that you're not in debt. And then people think it's very simple, but it's about how we feel about it. It's like money brings and brings us our well being. And even how often we hear that saying, money doesn't buy you happiness, and you're like, but it buys you convenience, that allows you to be happy, like it buys you easier things along the path. So the idea of like, you know, you get to meet these people who you assume are like, got everything figured out. And then they're, they have no idea how much money they bring in, or that much money they spend, or in general, why they decide to like ignore their credit card payments. Like there's, there's so many wrapped up feelings, which is why I'm so excited to jump in. I think there's a sense in this and just kind of asking you is being able to know that is whenever you do meet somebody, and you're helping them with their financial planning. What do you think is one of the top things that people try to, like, ignore about their money that can cause some big problems?

Meera Shireen 6:01

Ooh, that's a good question. I think people assume that if I tell them what to do, they'll just be able to do it. You know, it's like going to personal trainer, or like, I injured my shoulder, I went to the physical therapist, and she told me what to do. And it's actually on me to do it. And the reason that I'm not doing it isn't because I don't know what to do. It's like all of these other mental barriers, all these other habits that you become accustomed to throughout your life, like you have to overcome all of those things in order to execute on the steps to get better with money. And so I think a lot of people assume that having the information is enough. But really, you need to understand how to change your behavior. And that's a huge piece.

Speaker 2 6:48

I completely agree with this. I think this is exactly why a lot of my own health coaching training comes into business planning. And it's and a large portion of it is brain science and behavior. And I think that's exactly what we're talking about. But other than that, I feel like early in business, I would be acknowledged as power. I'd say this all the time. And then I thought there was like, No, you guys all know what to do like are you know, at least where to start? But doing it is the problem like actually, like following through with it? And it's not just like forcing yourself it's also going why, like, what's the hang up. So in with with knowing that, so like, let's say you give you give somebody a budget of some kind, and they don't follow through with it, what might be what might be some underlying pieces that you've tried to kind of work through with them.

Meera Shireen 7:33

I mean, a lot of time, people will come to me, and they'll say, I've, you know, I've made a budget in the past, and it just doesn't work. And I'm not good at budgeting, or I'm not good at money. And so it really is, first of all, I don't think anybody is not good with money. I think that we all have learned different things. And we're doing the best we can based on what we've learned and what experiences we've had. And so really having conversations about okay, well, like, what do you believe to be true about money? But how? How do you go about your day to day life? What are the things that you spend money on that maybe you are not noticing? What are the things you spend money on subconsciously, you know, up to me, one of the biggest things is creating an awareness around your financial transactions, because I could give you a budget and you could look at it and be like, cool, I'll do this and then not do it. But if you come to the table with like a big Y in front of you, this is why I want to change my financial situation. And then you cultivate that awareness that every time you do spend money, earn money, you log that you register that as an event. It all of a sudden, like budgeting is not as hard you know exactly what you're spending because you're conscious and you're aware in the moment. And a lot of the time, I think people will assume that it requires discipline and when I think it moreso requires awareness.

Jamie Ratermann 8:51

I love that. I think that's I think that's completely true. There's, I think, in general, whenever I've absolutely had clients of mine, that we're talking about revenue, and we're talking through what kind of money they want to make, and they and they're just like, Yeah, I guess I want to make that much. I'm like, Well, what's your, what's your monthly expenses, and they'll be like, I'm like, okay, and I'm like, even to just just to be completely honest, I have a very ugly budget sheet that's worked for me for many years. And I'm like, Alright, let's fill it out. And I'm like, Here you go. And then we and then they sit there and go, Oh, I I spend like 5000 a month on just all this different type of vendor support and just like my day to day living, I'm like, yeah, so that's your threshold, like 5k is just enough where if you want to grow we got to get a little bit higher and it's interesting how people like to ignore the numbers and I've even been in part of like coaching containers where someone's like, no, don't look at your budget just make more money just complete to complete make more money. And I've and I think that that's just like this idea of like bypassing of being able to get grounded and knowing your numbers and I think that's a big Part of it but I know why people don't do it. I think for me, my first financial book was a Suze Orman book. And I remember like, I brought it in, I'm like, Dad, I'm reading Suze Orman and he was that my dad was the financial guy in our family. Like, he would talk about the little things and the investments and he was just that guy. So the idea that I bought it, he was like, so excited that he bought two from my brother. And I remember like, I was like, flipping through it and like, you know, getting really it's like a very like in the numbers like like, okay, you know, you don't spend money on coffees you don't like you like any anywhere you can save you save all the above, and there was just like a very, like hard lines. And then I feel like that's repeated over and over again, like, like the Dave Ramsey's of the world and different arenas where it's there's so much to be said about what you're just saying that it does take discipline and behavior change and awareness, to understand how we use our money. But I think a lot of the advice that we've heard is has a lot more to do with, you better do this, or you're not a good person, if you don't have your money figured out, you're not a good person, if you hold any debt, then you better pull yourself out of it. So it's this idea of this, like bootstraps, like, pick yourself up type of idea. And I think that that's one it's sad for the fact that we all kind of come into a different financial situation, depending on our on our history, but also to, we know that tough love doesn't work long term, like we know that this is not going to be this long term scale. So what would you say if we were just kind of given a guidebook a blanket of like, how Mira would say, you should take a look at your money between spending debt, like if you gave us just to kind of your game plan, your easy game plan? I know this is a there's a lot to this, but being able to talk a little bit about what things would you keep with what we know and what and what things do you bring in with your clients that may we may not have heard of yet?

Meera Shireen 11:50

Yeah, this is good. This is gonna like I'm gonna I'm gonna noodle on this for a second. So I would say a lot of the financial decisions we make we make for emotional reasons. And so starting out, making sure that you can be satisfied, be happy, be content, outside of money. And I think a lot of the time we spend in certain areas, we buy things for ourself, we do all these things to kind of reach a point of contentedness or happiness. I don't know if you've heard of this concept called the hedonic treadmill.

Unknown Speaker 12:39

The treadmill, but tell me more, I want to hear it.

Meera Shireen 12:43

I'm just wondering, yeah, the hedonic treadmill. And so basically, it is the fact that after, after, like an event happens, and we're like, at a peak level, like we're happier, consistently, we'll go back to where we started. Or like something bad happens, we go down, we consistently go back to where we started. And so if you're operating at a baseline of like, never being satisfied, no matter if you earn more money, no matter if you, you know, if you have like a client come in, you're still gonna go back to that baseline feeling of being unsatisfied. And so the goal is to figure out how can I change this baseline outside of money, beautiful, and, and then once you're able to change that baseline, you know, you can earn money and spend it on things, you realize that it's not the money, like you said, money, you know, they save money doesn't buy happiness, but money can make things easier. But really, if you're, you know, consistently unhappy, stressed, whatever that itself needs to be addressed outside of your financial situation. And so I think a lot of the time we see these money tips, and we see this money advice, and we look at it and we're like, oh, if I do that, then I'll get this boost, and I'll be happier. And it's like, no, you have to address the baseline, right? Right where you are right now, and figure out how to do that outside of money. And that way, your financial relationship will actually your progress will be so much faster, if you don't think of money as the goal to your happiness.

Jamie Ratermann 14:08

Beautiful. I love this though, because I talk about this all the time. But like, it's this idea that like, we all believe that, that we're all chasing achievement, when we're really just chasing feelings, we're chasing how we would like to feel and we have this ability to right now go like I can create this feeling in a small way and it only grows if I continue to come back to this feeling so like this, it's exactly what you're saying is like if I get out of my you know, $10,000 in debt, then I'm going to be a better person and it's just it's going like no if I can see abundance, falling through for myself and feel feel like I'm taking care of myself right now. That's just that's gonna get rid of itself like oh, so hard to think of like people who like look at me going like what No, I gotta feel bad about this. Like, no, you don't.

Meera Shireen 14:58

And the thing is like you You do get out of that debt, like you will be happy for a little bit, and then you'll go right back down to where you were before, because it wasn't that debt that was causing the anxiety, it was some other feeling of like, you're doing something wrong, or you're not being enough, or you're not doing enough or, you know, whatever those feelings are. And so, I think a lot of the time we see money, it's like money success as the answer. And I'm I like, I, I can't tell you how many clients have come to me. And on paper, you'd be like, Oh, my gosh, this person should be like, This person is amazing, look at like, look at their look at their financial situation, and they must be so happy. And they have so much money stress. Because, because they're like, the, they're not disconnecting the fact that, like, the stress exists outside of money, and so they micromanage their money, they, they're scared to spend it, all of these other things are manifesting in their money. And so on paper, you know, you could be completely debt free, you could have a multimillion dollar portfolio, and that doesn't mean that you're going to be happy.

Jamie Ratermann 16:01

And so I but I love that like, because it's really a, it's a powerful understanding of, we don't need to keep getting these things outside of ourselves. And that I'll usually, like I think about this is that like, people like to, like, equate their net worth, to their self worth. And their this idea. And really, at the end of the day is that like, we if we continue to activate our self worth, things happen a little more easily, like I've had a client before who had a fantastic lunch, and she goes, but I'm gonna lose it all. Like, like, it's gonna be gone and like you just made more money than you would have in months. And why are we deciding like, it's the truth, though there was jokingly will be saying I want to lose it all. And like, I'm because I'm a troll under a bridge, like, I'll be like a troll under a bridge or something. He kept making that joke. And I'm like, but you just like, why is this where we're going? And I think this, what exactly what you're saying is understanding that it's not all our problem. Our own problem, too, is that there's a, there's some history to it. So I was talking about my own dad, and he was somebody who wanted to give his kids everything, he that's how my dad was. And he was he's always like, I'll take care of you, we'll take care of you and but he's like, but then, but then he'd like flip a switch, like, you need to learn about money. So there'd be this like, back and forth. And like he you know, it was something that I know that I got from him for the fact that he was a father. He was one of eight when I wouldn't. So in general, like my, my grandma and grandpa had to figure out how to make these things work. So I think he wanted to give his kids more than he had. But then he worried that he was giving too much away. So there's this, like, there's always this push and pull. And then sometimes I realized that pattern still lives within me is going like I'm like, I want the big thing. But I owe that I shouldn't have done that. For my like, there's that pattern that I think comes with what you're worthy of. And I think there's a sense of understanding that these, we do gain this, you know, how we feel about money, this like worth off of what we learned from our parents, but also that it's something we can move through. So what you're sharing here, like, how easy is it to release some of these feelings? You know what I mean? How is it to really get through that?

Speaker 1 18:08

Yeah, and I think that like the start of it is really understanding where your money beliefs come from. Because I remember a client I had, and she had a still has a super successful business, she's doing amazing. But she had this little bit of credit card debt that she was carrying with her. And she was like, I feel like a failure in my business. Like, I always thought my business was really successful. And now like, I'm failing, and this is awful, and I need your help. And I was like your business is actually really successful. You have this small amount of business debt, it wasn't like she, you know, did something frivolous that wasn't benefiting her, she was investing in our business. And she had some residual debt from that. And we traced it back to like her grandparents. And like her grandpa, you know, passed away and left all this debt for his wife to take care of. And her dad saw that. And like in his head, that was the worst thing in the world. And that was the lesson that he taught to her. And so really taking the time to unpack that and really understand, okay, where when I when I feel an emotion about money, can I trace it back? can I figure out where that first came from? My mom is the most frugal person, and you know it, it benefits her it's benefited her all her life. But she just she does not like spending money. She will never buy anything if it's not on sale. And I realized, like I have these unconscious patterns of like delaying purchases, even when I need something I went an entire summer without sandals, because I couldn't commit to like, buying the pair of sandals because I was just I don't know, there was something going on. And I realized like, oh, I can see how this manifested itself in me through the money stories and behaviors and actions that I witnessed as a child and so I think the first step is really understanding where that's coming from because that gives you context to move through it. And then, you know, once you understand it, you know, spend some time journaling, write it down, try to see like, what the opposite perspective is all of those things can really help you resolve whatever those those money stories are.

Speaker 2 20:13

Yeah, our emotions and our feelings about things is so big and also to like breaking subconscious habits patterns are. It's not something that's a snap of the fingers, it's being able to see the where it's from, and know that like, it's not us, it's just us trying to move through what we've been taught. So I love that. So first and foremost, awareness, y'all, we all just wanted to feel a certain way about money. And it doesn't mean that it doesn't have anything to do with numbers, at least, in my opinion, like I've gotten debt. And I've also sat in abundance in the way of being able to say like, it's how you feel about that number in your account. So I love that. So awareness. First, what else would be a game plan? What would you tell us as far as a game plan of how we can manage our money.

Speaker 1 20:54

So as far as actually managing money, I think, especially if you tend to err on the side of avoidance is, you know, I'm not I will just say right away, I'm not a therapist, I don't have any training in therapy. But my experience, my clients experience has been exposure, like, if you're uncomfortable about your balances, like go into your bank account every day, and just like, look at it, you don't have to do anything, you have to obsess about it, but just get used to like knowing that number. Because so often we try to trick ourselves, we're like, oh, if I don't look at it, it's not there. Or maybe it'll change. Or maybe it's different from what it was last time I love. So I'm just gonna assume that. And that that literally creates anxiety in your head, because you have this thing that exists, and you're pretending that it doesn't exist. And so, you know, when I did my money mindset program, that was one of the challenges for five days in a row, just like login and look at your credit card balance, and your bank and your checking account balance and just know what it is. And I mean, that plays into awareness also. But it really just gets you used to getting comfortable with what what's going on in your financial world. The avoidance is so normal, I have like, definitely want people to understand that. Like, if you're avoiding looking at something that's not you doing something wrong or bad. It's so normal, like it's a protection mechanism, because you don't want to create more anxiety, but you don't realize that it actually is creating more anxiety. So just by looking at it, you can kind of start to feel more comfortable addressing it's like, you know, you're handling something and as you handle it, you get more and more comfortable touching it until like, it doesn't feel like anything scary anymore.

Speaker 2 22:33

Yeah, like that recreating a practice. So it doesn't feel like you You don't you don't dread the login. You're like, oh, yeah, I saw it yesterday. I see it today. I love that. I love that. So if I'm looking, if I opened my account, and I'm looking at like, a mountain of debt, and a and like a, like, you know, a certain amount of money sitting in my checking or savings accounts. What would happen in this scenario where I'm just sitting there going, like, I don't even know where to start, like, I don't even I don't even know what to do about about this, like, what might you give advice is for someone who does do those logins, and is just going I keep looking at my desk every day. Thank you. Like,

Speaker 1 23:12

I know, it's there. Cool. I mean, and this is like this is this is a much bigger practice, right? It you know, you start by looking but it's like, okay, taking action, taking the steps, understanding what to do, like, we could have a whole conversation just about that. Um, I have a tool that I'm happy to share with your listeners. It's like a debt payoff calculator where you can enter in your debt, and you can see a timeline of like when your debt will be paid off. And I think that's really valuable for people that like, at times, it can be a little like stomach clenching, because you can see that year and be like that so far. But also at the same time, there's comfort in knowing that there's a timeline ahead of you, there's comfort in knowing that, like, at a certain point, this is I did it every single month, you're working towards that goal, and then you've done it. So I think using a calculator like that can be helpful if you're in the process of paying off your debt. And really understanding that your debt is not an I don't know, we we move toward the topic of debt. So I don't know, if we're landing gear or if that's

Unknown Speaker 24:14

the combo I like it is pure, perfect. Really understanding

Speaker 1 24:17

that your debt is not a reflection about of you in any way whatsoever. Like it doesn't mean you did something wrong, like we have grown up in a society where that tells us that debt is bad on one hand. And on the other hand, like how many times do you get little offers in your mail for a credit card? Or how many times are you on an airplane and they're like, join or join our credit card program and get your next flight for you like, We're taught that debt is bad. And at the same time, we're also told that we should go into more debt by people who benefit from it. And so just understanding it's not a representation of you at all. Most of the time when we're in debt. It's either because we were doing the best we could, based on the circumstances, we weren't, we didn't have a solid understanding of what this meant, like what it meant to pay off this debt over time. Or we were doing something to further our own selves to better ourselves to improve ourselves to create business for ourselves to create an education, you know, a career, whatever. And so I think that it's really easy to beat yourself up or to see that debt and be like, Oh, my gosh, I'm awful. I can't believe that I let myself do this. But it's not. It's not anything you need to take. Personally, I always one of the one of the little. What's the word I'm looking for exercises. One of the exercises that I have people do some time is like, imagine that you're an alien, like floating above Earth, and you like land in your body. And in front of you, you have your financial situation. And it's like, okay, this is my starting point. Anything that happened before, this doesn't actually matter. This is my starting point. So from where I am right now, how can I make progress forward? Because so often, we will look at our starting point, and we'll think back will be like, if I hadn't done this, if I'd only done this if I did things differently, but none of that is productive, and it kind of just makes you feel bad. Oh, if you are looking at your debt, like think of it like this is nothing before this matters. This is where I am right now. So how can I make decisions today and going forward, that are going to make the situation in front of me better?

Speaker 2 26:25

Beautiful, beautiful, I feel like like kind of like your alien analogy, like I'll talk to a client about, just attach the numbers, they're just numbers, even if it's a surplus, or it's, it's an a negative, like, it's just a number. Like, you're we're here we live we die, the numbers gonna stay or go, whatever you decide to do. Like, that is what it is, I think there's this idea that this is our like, our like, after we finish college, our grade scores or money like that, that feeling of like, okay, this is what that is exactly, with, with exactly what you're talking about is trying to just not let these numbers define the way in which you live the way in which you present yourself. And I think even to talking more about everyone has debt, like even millionaires have debt like people that this idea that, that you're bad if you have debt is gotta be the most insidious thing because I think it's for somebody who isn't in like, the higher, you know, higher salaries, they go, Oh, I don't have that I'll never get to the next phase of my money because I have to get rid of this debt first, or I this debt is, is the thing that's going to prevent me from going big with my business or going big with like travel, whatever it is something that's their money goal for them. And I find like, sometimes I just have to like go back and like, how much debt? Does Warren Buffett have? How much that was? What do these people have? Because it's like Holding, holding your dead as something that is just a thing. Like, like, it's like, like food in your fridge, like the restaurants you like, like, like whatever, like the small things that are just around you, instead of this measurement, I think is such a big deal. And also to understand that like, we don't talk about money, so we decided to hold this shame and guilt within ourselves when you can talk to the next person like, Oh, you're in credit card debt, same 10k All right. I'm, I've taken a few of it off, but it'll it'll it'll fix itself. We're fine. We're good. Like, I think that like really being able to get rid of whatever this boulder is of what debt means. That means about us is a big deal. And also being open about hey, yeah, like, right at the moment, the money's not there. But this is what I'm doing to fix that. And, like, I'm still radiant and fantastic with that. And without it like being able to, like lean into both sides of it.

Speaker 1 28:48

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that we feel like because we have debt, like we shouldn't be allowed to do things or we shouldn't like there's so much talk like Dave Ramsey stuff. Like if you have debt, you shouldn't see the inside of a restaurant. And it's like, no, like, I'm allowed to live my life and have these experiences actually, you know what I can do, I can express gratitude for all the debt that I have, because it brought me these experiences, and everything that I like love about myself right now our job my life, like part of that came from whatever circumstances put me into debt. And so I think that we don't often express gratitude enough for debt. And I think especially in the entrepreneurial space, like, I could list example, after example, after example of successful entrepreneurs who were at their, you know, absolute minimum 10s of 1000s of dollars in debt, maxing out all their credit cards about to file for bankruptcy before their business turned a corner. You know, Apple did wasn't even debt free until like 2005 or something crazy like that. You know, they had employees that they were paying and they were building these products and they still had all this debt that hadn't been paid off because they borrowed so much money to get the company started. Well, Disney was about to file for bankruptcy before or Mickey Mouse ended up being successful. The Airbnb guys, like they had maxed out every single one of their credit cards before they actually like, if you're an entrepreneur and you have debt, you're in good company. Not to say like, please go into debt in order to, well, you don't have to go into debt in order to be successful. But you can't build something from nothing. And so if you're starting on the ground, and you're trying to build a building, you need to borrow something in order to create your building, like you can't, it's not just going to appear out of nowhere. And so some people have parents who help them. Some people have jobs that they do to fund their business that people figure it out in a lot of different ways. And if the way that you figured it out was that, that's, that's just one of the ways to do it. I love that doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't, I

Jamie Ratermann